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| QSA ToolWorks Public Feedback Forum > What if Helix Can No Longer...? > Support All the Old View Types | You are not logged in. Login or Register. |
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| Author: | Topic: Support All the Old View Types | |||
Matt Posts: 107 Registered: 2003-02-16  mstrange@mac.com  |
 Posted: Jul 21, 2003 11:29:51 am    
Actually, this one isn't a "what if" - it's a fact. Helix has six window types available, based on what was available in Classic, plus the 'invisible' window type. The collection designer can also specify attributes (scroll bars, close box, zoom box, etc.) for which features to put into the window. The window types available in OS X (and on other platforms) are in some cases quite different, meaning that Helix will not be able to support the variety of window types that it has in the past. Upon updating to Helix 6, old window types will be converted to one of the 'platform neutral' types available Specifically... Document -> Document Notes: the three 'alert style' window types in Classic have morphed over the years to a point where they are virtually identical now, so moving them all to the plain window should not result in any visual dis-continuity, but the loss of the rounded document (the old DA-style) is significant. It might be possible to map that to OS X's brushed metal style, but that doesn't go cross platform, so we have made the decision to convert them into regular documents. As I mentioned at the top, there really isn't much need for comments on this one. It has to happen if we are to move away from the Classic Mac OS. As such, please don't add replies of the "that's OK" nature. Please reply only if you see a potential problem or have unanswered questions.
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| Matt Posts: 107 Registered: 2003-02-16 mstrange@mac.com |
 Posted: Aug 04, 2003 11:10:29 am
I expected quite a bit of commentary on this one, but got none. I suspect it is beacuse the title never made it up to the main page. This posting is just to see if that is a correct assumption.
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chuckbo Posts: 42 Registered: 2003-04-09 |
Posted: Aug 04, 2003 12:21:05 pm
I'd seen the note, but, as you said, it's a fact. There doesn't seem to be much that we can say about it . chuck |
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dkuchta Posts: 40 Registered: 2003-04-09 |
Posted: Aug 09, 2003 10:27:21 am
Matt: I suspect the reason you didn't get much reaction is that not many people knew it was posted. I put a message on the Helix List about it. As for the view types, the only suggestion I have is that it would be great to also have the OSX "sheet"-style alerts. These are the ones that slide out of the title bar of a window and get dragged around with the parent window. I haven't thought this through so I'm not sure how this would work. From a Helix developer's standpoint it would be nice to have the ability to present an an alert sheet when the information in it is relative to a particular window. However, under the hood in a Helix collection, a window is a window is a window and there's no concept of one window being attached to another, so I'm not sure how you'd implement this. It would take some careful thought and planning to properly weave it into the Helix paradigm. Just something to keep in mind for "later-on-down-the-road" features. -Dan Kuchta
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| Matt Posts: 107 Registered: 2003-02-16 mstrange@mac.com |
Posted: Aug 10, 2003 11:00:43 pm
A 'sheet' would be kind of cool for a view that is attached as an auto open posting option, but I think that violates the idea of what sheets are. And it isn't nice (as we learned when me made dialogs center over the window that called them) to obscure the data underneath. Then there's a bigger issue: cross-platform. We're doing nothing in Helix that won't work on 'the other' platforms. Sheets don't fit in that plan. Maybe once we've got that under control, we can do some Mac specific things, but not yet. This, also, points to the reason we aren't going to use the 'metal' style windows in OS X.
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keVin Posts: 30 Registered: 2003-04-09 |
Posted: Aug 11, 2003 8:17:01 pm
I concur with Chuck. Matt and Dan hinted at some cool features but I was stopped in my tracks by "this one isn't a "what if" - it's a fact." I think some OS X-only features would really help Helix 6 since its market is not Windows users. Interestingly, other developer tools like RealBasic and Revolution offer OS customization. RB even allows brushed metal for Carbon apps while maintaining cross-platform compatibility. SuperCard is not cross-platform but supports OS 9 and X with an interesting OSX only palette. It is logical to plan for the future but just seems a bit odd to limit the feature set for the intended audience to those available on a platform most will never use. - Edited by Matt on: Aug 12, 2003 9:12:57 am |
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| dkuchta Posts: 40 Registered: 2003-04-09 |
Posted: Aug 12, 2003 7:15:43 am
One thing I would REALLY like to see happen in the OS X views is for the different window types to behave the way they're supposed to based on a selection of the window type, not just a selection of the way the window looks. This has been a problem for me with the current versions of Helix and I've put in a feature request for it. The problem is that I can creat an "alert" window that looks like a modal dialog but doesn't behave like one. A modal dialog should allow a user to switch to another application, but not to another window in the current application. In Helix it behaves exactly the opposite. The user can switch to another window in Helix (which I don't want to allow in some cases), but not to another application. The purpose of a modal dialog is to force the user to make some decision before he can continue using the application. I would like to be able to select a window type based on behavior, and then the 'look' options for the window should be appropriate for the type. I'd like to be able to select: - Document window - Moveable modal dialog - Non-modal dialog - Invisible - Sheet alert (hey, I can wish can't I? :-) I'm not sure if the OS X paradigm includes all these types, but the point is that the behavior is as important as the look of the window. And, while we're wishing - I would LOVE to be able to open an invisible window in a visible mode temporarily. Its always a pain to switch the window type to be able to see what's going on when debugging, and then switch back for normal use. Many times I forget to switch back and then my release product has ugly windows popping up when they shouldn't. I can think of a couple of ways you could do this. One would be, in Design mode, when you option-double-click a view it would open visibly even if it is marked invisible. Maybe a better way would be to have a menu option in Design mode that is labeled "Show invisible windows". The idea would be that ALL invisible windows would open visibly while in Design Mode, but revert to invisible in User Mode. This would allow a designer to run through sequences with all the windows showing up, without having to go to each one and change its mode, and then try to remember to change them all back to invisible later. Since this forum is about new views, is it ok to just leave this suggestion here? Or do you consider this a related but different enough topic that I should put it in as a feature request? -Dan Kuchta
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| Matt Posts: 107 Registered: 2003-02-16 mstrange@mac.com |
Posted: Aug 12, 2003 10:29:54 am
quote: We are on a forced march with limited funds trying to get to a place that has been promised for nearly 10 years now. It is very easy to fall into the "we'll take a little diversion and do this special thing" trap. We dare not. quote: So... do we break the behavior of all the existing collections that do not strictly conform to the proper spec? To make alert style windows suddenly begin acting like alert dialogs would certainly cause sequences that use them to stop working. Do we really want to invite that sort of compatibility issue? As for the 'show invisible windows' option, that should probably go in as a feature request, otherwise it will get lost.
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| chuckbo Posts: 42 Registered: 2003-04-09 |
Posted: Aug 14, 2003 12:01:34 pm
Matt, to enable existing sequences to continue working, it sounds as if we're describing a new window type - modal alerts. Any existing alerts would continue to act as nonmodal alerts (unless changed by the developer). |
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| Robin Posts: 10 Registered: 2003-04-16 |
Posted: Sep 18, 2003 12:07:49 am
I agree absolutely with the need for an alert view that behaves like an alert view. I have wanted this feature many times and been very frustrated that we do not have it. I would say it would add a great deal of value to Helix if it would be possible to add this feature. I agree also that it would be safer to make this a new view style and to update existing alert views to the plain style.
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